Singing Pig

Sheepy:

Chillinlong

I am not sure mentioning tyrany of Pharoes is a good example when you consider the brute force and violence used to spread the word of Islam or for that matter the contempt the quran holds for women who are classed as inferior to men and the belongings of man. Was it not true that one of Mohammeds wives was only 6 when he married her.

Just because you cant disprove something doesnt mean it could be right. If I said there was something miles out in space which no one could detect or see with the most powerful telescope does not prove that it doesnt exist so whilst one cannot prove the existance of heaven or God to be false you have to admit it stands on very shaky ground. I asked my teachers at school where heaven and hell were. One teacher told me heaven was up above and hell was down below so I asked where it was if we were in Australia and got a detention

The treatment of all people by religion (not just Islam) especially women is despicable

Hello again,

I notice this debate is totally one way whereas I am not asking any questions because I respect what everyone else wants to believe in but more questions are being asked but I can only answer so much as I am not totally knowledgable so I will try my best.

This is why I say go and read the books yourself and then you are in a better position to understand instead of coming back and keep asking me questions as I do not know all the answers but it is out there if you do your research otherwise we will be discussing this for ever.

The example I tried to imply was for example when Moses struck the ground and the sea split for the children of israel to escape from Pharoah, I believe this was religion not magic. Again, when you mention islam is spread by brute and force etc you are talking of peoples actions, I am talking about islam in general ie the koran as said in the previous posts.

You are absolutely right that Mohammed (PBUH) probably did marry a girl of his friend who was 6 years old at the time and then moved to his house at 9 years old, this I do not know why therefore I cannot understand this fully although I intend to find out but you probably can find out if you also do your research so I cannot answer this question. A whole another topic.

I am sorry to hear you got detention for asking questions in class.

With regards to women, before islam was revealed in Arabia the women had no such rights and were treated very badly and like slaves etc. Islam was revealed which introduced rights for women for the first time ever there for example, men are now supposed to look after the women and the men have to spend their money on them not the other way around. Also introduced rights in divorces etc for example 50% share of wealth I could go on and on. As I understand it women are very important in islam and we have the utmost respect for them which is not what you see in some cultures, this is why I said culture and religion are two different things.

Like I say I do not know all the answers and I wish I could answer them all but I suggest you go and find out from various sources on the internet etc and if you are quite happy with what you believe in then there is no argument as you should be content with what you know.

Mr Helpful

I had a quick look at the link and did not have a proper read as I am happy with what I already know and I only look at various sources that I believe are authentic for further information. In other words you will always find conflicting materials out there but believe in what your heart says is what I would say.

I try not to get too technical ie sharia law etc because this is again a commitees (peoples actions) set of rules based on islam and this can vary all over the world.

I thank you for your debates.

All the best god willing!

Cillinlong

I certainly admire you in your defense of Islam and the good nature of the debate. I found that site interesting as it quotes the Koran and other scriptures quite a lot but I could have done the same for any of the monotheistic religions, as when you read them you find contradictions and errors all over the place. So much so that all religion becomes unbeleivable. Over the years evidence has shown how the Old Testament is horribly innaccurate and that much of the New testament was either a distortion to start with or has been butchered (mainly by theCatholics since) To me the only thing that holds it together is power and money. I believe that most of the high up officials of religion know that what they are brainwashing the masses with is a con, but what would happen to them if they were proved wrong? Answer their fine living and power would be gone.

To me it is astounding that when the Archbishop of Canterbury said in 2006 that creationism should no longer be taught so few people asked What that meant for their god. If god created nothing why worship at all. Now as we are talking about the god of the Christians, the Jews and Islam, people should be realising the great con that has been perpetrated at their expense

Chillinlong

I ahve to disagree with your concept of Islam and Women. You only have to look at what Muslim men can get away with compared to their women. plus the humiliation of being dressed in clothes as flattering as a Dalek and being forced to cover up their faces. How do you think they feel with hardly any rights when they see what western women can enjoy. It is only the Muslim males insecurity that makes him keep his women in this way.

I wonder how many female Muslim investors we have on this site. it would be nice to hear from them.

Sheepy

I am afraid that you are confusing religion with culture. I have asked a number of asian women who wear traditional dresses for the reasons for doing so and the majority response was that they do it because they want to and not because their fathers or husbands asked them to.

In Asia, in particular south asia, the families are generally dependent on the breadwinner - normally the father /husband. This gives men more power but this situation is changing fast with the growing economic prosperity. A similar situation existed in UK too until the World Wars. The lack of men to work at the factories/offices due to the war gave women the major break and as a result women here have more freedom. Yet, you will find that women are under-represented in senior managment positions throughout UK despite all the freedom and equality laws. Moreover, if you read the history books, you will also note that it was an asian country that democratically elected the first woman prime minister in the world long before UK thought of Margaret Thatcher. 

Hope it helps. 

Thank you and well said Joel,

I was getting the feeling nobody is hearing the few important comments I have made with regards to the Culture and Religion is two different things. All the women I know in Islam are really mostly happy humble people and want to dress like however they are, as a lot of women in the western world are doing, they do not have to wear such long covering clothes yet they have chosen to do so and some choose not to. On another point, if you look at the angle this prevents issues such as divorces, drawing attention or any other situation that might arise etc, I know for a fact a lot of guys I know or see around will definitely talk about a good looking lady if they were walking past etc now if they were to have the opportunity to chat to the lady the guy would tend to try and have the opportunity to chat her up somehow. Now if they seen the lady wearing a hijab and a dress that does not reveal the shape of their body there is a visual reminder straight away that the lady is not interested in looking for relations etc in an inappropiate form maybe because they are married and this deters a lot of men looking, wolf whistles etc. Islam treats women as very sacred and special that is why it is important for us men to look after them as much as possible as it is our duty to treat them with respect and care for them in every possible way not to oppress them. There are bad guys out there also, but this is maybe due to ignorance, culture or many things.

On another point a previous post mentioned about Muhammed (PBUH) getting married at 6 years old, just to clear this up I am sure the girl was chosen to marry from 6 years but did not actually consumate and move in with him till she was about 18 years old thereabouts. There will always be be conflicting material but if you read some authentic history books you will notice Muhammaed (PBUH) always said to not hurt or kill women and children in war, whereas this is ignored in most wars going on today and in the past and still people say nothing. 

Most of the arguments coming back are always peoples actions and mostly cultures and we could debate for the rest of our lives, but again as I have previously said define is it culture or religion and the only way you can do that is to actually read the scriptures yourself and not actually look at other materials for example websites that are quoting texts that are totally biased on another person views. Somehow people can make certain quotes from scriptures sound so wrong when they misinterpret it or maybe leave the rest of the sentences out. Overall read the books yourself and not listen to other peoples comments but listen to your heart.

Now a previous post mentioned about the Archbishop acknowledging we should stop teaching there is a creator or something along the lines as it has all been a big con. In life there has been a creator for everything so why should there not be a creator for life? Some people will have different views respectively, to which I have no argument as I know what I believe.

The basis of my points are that I am content with what I know and practise as I have done my research, however I am no expert and am still learning more therefore I do not question everyone else as to why do they do this or that etc. To me if you are always questioning others, commenting and picking on others peoples beliefs such as minor things all the time and feeling you have to tell them that this is wrong and they have not asked you then I feel they are not content with what they know and practise.

Thanks

The last 2 posts show up one or two intresting things.

Joel. 

Dont you think that religion sets the rules and layout for the culture and so are inseperable ie it may be the culure to wear the hijab but it was the religion that gave the instruction in the first place. The treatent of women as posesions in Islam is pretty abhorrent to the civilized world but then the Christians fare little better having over he years  Christianity does not recognise women as equals either.

Chillinlong

Life is not created in the sense that some higher being designs it and then creates it. Life evolves in small steps from previous organisms ie Chnese bird flu has evolved from a previous strain of flu. Surely you dont believe god sat up in heaven and thought he would give the earth a new dose of deadly flu as aids was a bit old hat. And the there would be the question of, if god was so great who created god as such a complex being would have to be created

As regards Mohammeds wife the scriptures say she was 6 or 7 when married and consumated at age 9 and she died age 18. Also she was one of about 15 wives! I realise you only read the bits that suit but that is not going to help you on your way through life as to get to the truth you have to question things.

Mr Helpful,

You obviously did not read the previous post and do not agree with the religion and culture are two different things to which I respect. Again you did not read the women section in islam and saying the same thing over again which is fair enough as it is your view.

Life is created by a creator I believe and you do not which again is your view and I respect. If you think humans are in the same category as chinese bird flu, no problem. You ask why does God create these things again to which I think I tried to explain briefly so I will not continue a subject that has been said already. If there were no such things would anybody be thankful and appreaciate life in general? If you know something that might shed more light to these questions then maybe you have something that we do not have. I for one do not question who created God as I believe God created mankind and I am content with this.

Which scriptures are you referring to with regards to Muhammed? Website? I actually heard the info of somebody about this and I apologise if it appears wrong it was not something I read somewhere but like I say this is another topic as I am primarily reading and discussing the koran. So far it has helped me enourmously through my life and continues to teach me more and new amazing things everyday aswell as keeping me content and aware with the situations in the world along with trying to help out wherever I can.

I wish you the best of luck and thank you for this debate.

The old testament starts with the premise that god created the earth and all that lived in it. So I do count man alongside Chinese bird flu in as much as they are both on the planet and if the creationist view was to be correct you would have to ask the question why god creates things which cause so much suffering and pain Surely you dont actually believe that you need pain to experience pleasure?. you also have to marvel the predators efficiency of killing but at the same time admire the preys ability to fend off or hide from the predator. Just who's side is God on.

Genesis , the first book of the bible sates the world was created in 6 days and this was beleived as correct in biblical and Mohammeds time. A day was only changed to mean a long period of time when it was realised the earth was many millions of years old and all sorts of life had preceded man. Genesis also talks of starting with two people Adam and Eve. Does this explain how unknown (at the time) peoples such as aborigines or American Indians came about? NO Does it explain correctle why some people are Black and others white plus all shades in between? NO. So given that the first chapter of the scriptures relating to the 3 main monotheist religions is a total fairy story do you not question the other parts and discrepancies?

Evolution and Natural selection do explain the above. People (both black and white) are evolutions made by many small genetic changes over many years from other animals. When genetics produces an advantage the new being is more succesful and breeds. Hence my objection to me almost being accused of racism earlier in the thread. I view all humans of both sexes as equal but their outward difference is caused by evolution. Put simply a White man running around middle Africa in the nude would fry rather quickly. The Black man has evolved a skin better able to deal with the hot sun so has the advantage there. However he is still just a human born in another part of plant earth.

The Chinese flu has evolved by sucessful genetic mutation to be a highly efficient breeder at mans expense but how or why could one reason that god created it.

Whilst I do not dispute the Koran or the bible give a mildly reasonable  framework  of rules there is no reason to forget that these books were written centuries ago by people who did not have the knowledge available today and is quite hard to discern the fiction from fact.

The Sharia Mortgage is an evolution of a normal mortgage to suit a sector of the comunity but the question is does it give any real benefits to the purchaser because if it did then we should all have one. Unfortunately I dont think it does so we are back to the old "when in Rome do as Romans do"

Mr H

www.justgreatmortgages.co.uk

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