Singing Pig

Massive, I hope your wish comes true for the Buddhism mortgages.

Fair go Mr Helpful.

Again a lot of the actions you mentioned are down to individuals actions including governments.

Somehow there is a "moderate" category which has started by the media, to which I am not sure where does this put me as I try and keep my faith strong and to be fair and respectful to others. There are extremists which you will find in every religion to which a lot of people do not agree with their actions and they somehow inflict upon other people. I have to say although I have not read Salman Rushdies book I have a strong feeling I would disagree with a lot of his writings from what I have read and heard of him.

I agree that there are many bad things going on in this world and this is why this is a test for us to show that going the right way is the correct way ie being respectful, honest and clean etc to test the strength of your character from satans desires, and to stay away from all the bad temptations etc.

With regards to all the things you mentioned again this is cultures in countries that are somehow doing this and for some reason we only hear the bad stories in our media whereas there might be a lot of good that outweighs the badness that we do not hear about.

My Mum is a strong believer in the catholic religion and my Dad is a muslim but he has never really taught me the basics. It was up to me to go out and find the information through research etc from when I was young. I agree with what you are saying some people take the religion because their family are already practising it and sometimes this can end up the younger generations following it and are not really sure why they are practising their faiths yet do it because it seems normal therefore they can never really understand the full meanings aswell as educate other people with this respect.

No religion should be imposed on children, it should be entirely up to the child but it should be the duty of the parent to be able to give information as to when and where needed in the event the child asks to why do so and so do this with regards to religion. This way the child can then decide for themselves if they want to know further and practise this way or not.

I have read some books with regards to Science and Islam and have found a lot of information is not conflicted. For example, recently there was a science program on BBC , I cannot remember the name but it was nothing to do with islam and at the end of the program the presenter said "you will find a copy of the Koran in many big scientist labs around the world) because in the Koran there are so many facts about science ie about the solar system and the environment etc. Also there is loads of information in there that Science only discovered in the last 200 years whereas this book was revealed over 1400 years ago. Again this could turn into a whole another topic but this is not fair on the other SP readers as this post only started on about the Sharia complaint mortgages.

I am not too sure what the testament reads but which version did you read as there is supposed to be a few is there not? In the Koran it states "God is the most merciful and the most kind" so it would read a different picture to what you read.

Again, none of this information like you say is supposed to offend anybody and I would not want to impose this stuff on anybody who does not want to know, I have tried to answer it as short as possible.

Chillinlong

Mr helpful:

I was brought up to believe all was created by a God but at an early age started questioning things. religious people were incapable of explaining anything other than faith in something you cant see or touch and has never been detected with any scientific instrument. As it was written in a book one just had to believe in the good fairy who was in fact supposed to be a woman hating old man who had a list of ten things he didnt want you to do. If you disobeyed him he had a place for you where you would burn and scream until time ran out (also undetectable with scientific instrments) but hey he loves you.

Being serious it comes down to one of two things. Either you believe that the earth and its contents was created by a superhuman being "God" or you believe a God had nothing to do with our creation and life on earth evolved.

If you believe life on earth evolved Darwin style like me then animals such as dinosaurs can be explained (something the religious books dont mention because they ddnt know they existed) and as God doesnt exist one doesnt have to grovel and pray for forgiveness. Life is easy and we get on without hiderence.

If however you believe that Earth etc was created by a God then you have to wonder why he created humans with the ability to enjoy Peace, love and joy and then filled our lives with hate and despair not to mention famine pain war and disease. How could one worship a being that created AIDS, Tsunami, eartquakes, Bird Flu,Cancer War and so on. To my way of thought if there is a god then unfortunately he hates us so it is no use praying and worshiping him..

This logically brings me to the conclusion that all religion is evil and therefore should not be tangled up with a mortgage. Please note I am not having a go at any one religion as I find them all illogical. Perhaps one day someone will be able to give me answers that make sense.

Mr. Helpful,

I respect your right to say anything you want and thank the moderators for allowing us to have this discussion.

From what I have read so far, I see some fundamental flows in your argument. You say everything has to be proven by science or should have a logical explanation. You also say that you started to ask questions at a young age but couldn't get satisfactory answers. Because of this you have concluded that all religions are fake and become an athiest. From what you have posted, I can also see your understanding of religions is limited.

I can safely tell you that what mankind knows is very little and we have a long way to go. Trying to find answers to everyting with the limited scientific knowledge that exists is therefore foolhardy. To quote Albert Einstein - one of the most cleverest scientists ever lived on this planet, 

“We still do not know one thousandth of one percent of what nature has revealed to us.”

(Just think about it. For example, if someone would have told us 40 years ago that most cars in UK will have a small device called SatNav costing around £200 that would show the best route from one post code to another guided by some machinery called satelites circling above the earth's atmosphere we would have laughed at them.) 

I would also like to challenge your wisdom on thinking that the people you approached when seeking the answers to your questions were the right people. I put it to you that they were not and that you did not try hard enough otherwise you would have probably achieved 'nirvana' like lord buddha did. It is also debatable whether you asked the right questions in the first place.

You have also made a lot of sweeping statements about many religions and others have already tried to explain to you the errors in your thinking. From what I can see, you have somewhat a 'west centric' view of religions and have a lot to learn. Have it ever occured to you that all major religions of the world originated from either Middle East and Asia? I reckon you need to broaden your horizons a lot more. You mention that there is no mention of dinosaurs in the bible. However, there are several references to similar creatures mentioned in the bible. e.g. Book of Job & Psalms. I am sure that you have come across dragons from the east which are similar to some dinosaurs. I have also seen similar creatures to dinosaurs in some ancient hindu temples.

I have lived in three continents so far and have plenty of eduction that puts me in the top 0.1% of the world population. What I have learnt/experienced in my travels so far humbled me to accept that there is a God, which is contrary to your suggestion about education and atheism. From what I have learnt/seen, there is nothing wrong with any of the religions per se. It is actually the way some people practice or preach them makes them a source of conflict. Personally I have no problems with lenders providing religion compliant loan products or services. Good luck to them and their buyers. As you mentioned, there are 20000+ mortgage products already. Therefore having another 100 is not going to make any difference to your working life.

Declaration of interests - I am a practising christian and a member of my church council. I was born in a predominantly buddhist country and have plenty of christian (both catholic and protestant), hindu and buddihist relatives. I also have friends and clients from all religions including Islam and Sikhism.

Best regards,

Joel    

Truly is it said that travel broadens the mind, and enriches the soul.

I have fought in many countries of this world, alongside Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs and Jews, and in the face of Islamic fundamentalism.  And it has taught me the greatest respect for every one of these faiths.  Human nature is what it is, and nothing we create will ever be perfect.  But though atrocities may be committed in the name of religion, this doesn't mean religion is the cause of atrocity.

Not a single conflict I've experienced has been genuinely driven by religious belief.  To witness words of faith perverted to serve a violent cause only makes sharper the contrast between genuine belief, and human desire.  I have heard the name of Allah invoked against me, but far more often have I heard our Christian God invoked to absolve us of deeds that should shame us.

Don't see the world through open eyes, but with a closed mind.  Strive to see things how they are, not just how they appear to be.

How nice it is to have a decent debate on SP for a change. I thought for a time Massive had hijacked it with his comments about Bhuddist mortgages but he did show how stupid it would be if the lenders had to make up mortgages for every religious belief. His point about whether wars are really about religion. Difficult to answer I remember the Catholic / Protestant conflict in Ireland. When this conflict looked bad for religion it suddenly became a Loyalist / Nationalist conflict such is the power of religion to divert the flak.

Massive I take it you were fighting for peace (a contadiction of terms like military intelligence) and taking lives of others in a justifiable cause. I just wonder when murder is justifiable is it religious or political grounds. Of course you could say you were protecting people from another group by trying to kill the other side. Bit of an eye for an eye type action isnt it. Over the years we have seen how little solution the military gives us especially on view today in Iraq Afghanistan and Somalia and probably to come Iran and Korea. You would have thought Vietnam would have been a lesson.

Joel

Welcome to the debate. Yes we know science does not have every answer and whilst it has got one hell of a long way to go, it has shown much of the middle east scriptures to be wrong. In Christian terms we know that much has been left out or removed from the bible ie the gnostic gospels. The version of Genesis and the creation we are given today is way off what was believed 2000 years ago. Of course the C of E has actually dropped the creation theory from its teaching. This leaves a major player accepting that god was not responsible for our creation. when the Catholics accept it as well then we have at least 1 in 4 people in the world realising their regigious education was wrong

Why is it religious peoiple have a problem with science? If science proved say the virgin birth religion would seize it with both hands but of course whilst at present it cannot be totally disproved it is 99.99999% likely to be a complete fallacy

Next point Just because science hasnt proved or disproved something doesnt mean it had to be created by some unknowable sky fairy. Do you believe Darwin got it wrong when he said we evolved from apes? It is often pointed out that scientists have not created life from chemical constituents but so far man can mutate organisms such as bacteria by ratiation in to new strains and has managed cloning which is a new life ie once there was one sheep in the lab now there are 2 living. Man is getting there.

You quoted Einstein as being a great scientist. Agreed but did you know he was also an atheist he said "The idea of a personal god is quite alien to me and seems even naive" he also said "I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

I think Dragons are more like a few reptiles that remain selected and evolved by natural advantage. Dinosaurs existed about 70 million years before man and were not known about and certainly not creatures from before the dinosaurs. The bible says the earth was round not spherical surely Jesus would have spotted this as he popped up to see dad for the weekend. God was supposed to have sent his son down to save man. Save him from what exactly. Not much has changed has it 2000 years on in fact it is a much more barbaric place thanks to religion. All religions talk of peace but they put divisions and restrictions in to society which serve no purpose for the good of mankind. Sunday trading not approved of by our Churches Why Women are second class citizens (christianity and Islam and others) Why. Pork is poison (Jews) never killed me. Beef is sacred (hindu) why  ans so on.

You have not explained why you think 1) god created everthing and 2) how the world has benefited mankind or for that matter the economic benefits of a sharia compliant commercial mortgage. this last point should be easy given your expertise in the commercial side of thngs and your knowledge of this type of mortgage which is way beyond mine

One last point I think it was very good of you to point out your declaration of interests.Mine are well known but I have friends, neighbours and clients from every major faith. 

Chillinlong

You sad  In the Koran it states "God is the most merciful and the most kind"

Could you explain this in terms of the suffering inflicted on inocent people by tragic natural events such as the tsunami, the floods in southern USA or say the Pakistan earthquake just to name a few f the recent ones. Its not a case of getting at his non believers a these events killed and maimed innocent people from many religions.

Mr helpful:

tragic natural events such as the tsunami, the floods in southern USA or say the Pakistan earthquake

Also intriguing how such disasters are referred to as 'acts of god' - a term generally reserved for unexpected mishaps with a negative outcome.  One would expect the reverse to be true, if indeed the almighty were such a beneficial influence...

Mr helpful:

Massive I take it you were fighting for peace ... and taking lives of others in a justifiable cause.

I do what I do because I am driven to protect the things I love.  And when it really comes down to it, in the heat of the moment, I fight for the men beside me.  As for justification, we all have our own way of dealing with the demons.  But thats a subject for another thread, and I don't want to hijack this one.

And yes, I would have hoped we all would have learned a lesson by now, but it seems the thin veneer of civilisation is no match for the brutality of human nature.

Regards

Hi Massive

I agree with you at last at least with your first point. Acts of God do refer to negative events mainly disasters. Why? Because if you belong to one of the theist faiths, you believe a god created the universe and all that lives in it. Many theists believe the creator is intervening in our lives constanly. This however means he is responsible for these disasters. Many uneducated people see it as punnishment. I remember the floods in USA being labeled as Allahs punishment for Americas foreign policy. No explaination as to why he hit a mainly Black non Bush liking part of the USA or why the next big dissaster was in Pakistan which is largely Muslim. No explanation why innocent babies and children were killed. None of this seem the work of a merciful God. If however you are an Atheist you understand that Two of the disasters I mentioned earlier related to movement of tectonic plates a phenomenon not mentioned in Scriptures. The third event was a weakness in flood defences in a hurricane affected part of the world. As I said earlier if you believe in a powerful creationist God you must give him the blame for that which is evil as he had to have created evil for it to exist and disasters are not the work of a merciful being. If God is not responsible for our everyday lives why are we worshiping him?

Your second point I only partly agree with. We all have Demons as you put it and yes that would make a good debate on another thread but I will let you start that one. As to fighting. Yes we do like to protect that which we love and many religious wars were fought along those lines. I think it fair to say the extremist demonstations over the famous cartoons did have some people who were trying to protect their faith though I must say if Allah is really that powerful he could look after himself and would also know that the three most offensive cartoons were not by the cartoonist in question and had been substituted to cause trouble.

When you join the Army you are not really fighting for your beliefs but that of your government. I am sur many of the soldiers in the current war zones are not in it to protect that which they hold dear. Many people would get on with the opposition if they got to know them Look at the famous WW1 footie match against the germans at xmas between the trenches. The mind boggles at its stupidity.

For an interesting alternative view of our existance try this link Im not saying I believe it but the author does do a lot of interesting research and gives an alternative more rational view of God (if there is one)

http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/alternate_view_of_reincarnation.html

Mr H

www.justgreatmortgages.co.uk

www.mindengineer.biz

Mr helpful:

Chillinlong

You sad  In the Koran it states "God is the most merciful and the most kind"

Could you explain this in terms of the suffering inflicted on inocent people by tragic natural events such as the tsunami, the floods in southern USA or say the Pakistan earthquake just to name a few f the recent ones. Its not a case of getting at his non believers a these events killed and maimed innocent people from many religions.

Hello again,

I am not the best person to explain, this is why I would suggest you actually go and get a good translation of the koran and read it for yourself. Seeming as you have the time to read salman rushdies materials I would recommend you to have a look at this and decide for yourself the questions you are asking me.

I believe this world is a test for everyones soul to decide whether we are going to hell or paradise although God alreadys knows our destiny as it is pre written. If God is capable of creating such beautiful things on this earth then he can create such a perfect world which is paradise in heaven and for the evil is hell hence we have to go on the road to test our character first. If you think of the scenarios in a different angle such as we believe all the people who have suffered in these unfortunate circumstances will not have to face punishment on judgement day as much as some of us, as they have already had theirs and they would have a direct ticket going straight to paradise (heaven). Every child who dies goes straight to paradise without question and have their adult life up there, every person in heaven is 33 years old. A day in heaven is equal to 80 years in this life. I could go on and on but again this is what I believe and this thread would be such a long one but I am trying to keep it brief, this is why I say just read the book to see if it answers your questions. Basically the real life is the after life, that is why we should try and keep life simple and help every other person we can to help us have a better chance to go to paradise. In this life our lives are so short and we cannot escape death no matter what.

I have met some people who say they are atheists and questioned them if they were ever in a scenario "you were on a boat in the middle of an ocean and there were rough seas chopping and looks like the boat is ready to sink and there is nobody to help you, the last plead you would probably think of is please god help me get out of this situation. Next thing you know, somehow you have survived and get on dry land the next day, you all of a sudden forget who you was relying on to get you out of the most critical situation in your life" This is the situation we have today, people take things for granted too much and when they are vulnerable they face reality again. We should try to thank god every day for a new day and whatever situation is put upon us whether it is bad or good.

I dont mean to drone on too much but I have tried my best to say it in the way I feel is best understood.

Now you could spend all day, month, year and all life asking questions like  what about this person doing this or what about that. Whatever you feel comfortable with is the best route for you at the end of that day. 

Best of luck!