Singing Pig

Oh, and if you always agreed with me, one of us would be redundant :-) Love it Mark but I guess it would be me that was redundant LOL

Like Mark I could write volumes of replys to his and Massives post's. In reply to Massives post yes I do see Catholicism and protestantism (and Islam) as violent religions but not because of Ireland even though I am surrounded by Catholics of an Irish nature. We often read about Child abuse in Catholic areas, and the Catholic church has coughed up over a billion pounds in compensation but what concerns me more is the mental and psychological abuse imposed on children. the idea that children should be indoctiated in to a religion or faith at an age where they are incapable of making up their minds let alone understanding faith is abhorrent.

We do not need any religion to order our lives and make the world a safe place. More peopl have lost their lives through religion than any other cause. People are not going to be permanently wanting to fight. The current position is driven as Massive says by politics and military position. Unfortunately the politics is that of religion in that the politicians are also religious leaders in most Islamic dictatorships and the military is their tool. Modern religions have only been around for less than 3000 years but man has survived ok for a lot longer and would continue to do so in the total ansence of any religion. Yes there would be nutters like George Bush who did say that God told him to invade Iraq (pity he didnt tell him about the lack of WMD) I have no doubt that without god he would have wanted a scrap but at least would have had to admit that the reason was oil and without the excuse of Muslim bashing in revenge for muslim attrocities he would not have had so much support.

In answer to one of Marks points. There are countries totally dominated by religion and they are places with severe restricions of personal feedom and do not benefit from the many freedoms we enjoy here in the UK. I do actually include Ireland here There are many countries in ths world where we could not have this discussion except in prison where we would both be if we hadnt been stoned first. There are already many people in this country who wish to forcibly subject this country to religious dicttorship.

As far as I am concerned I am not bothered what someone believes. It is an individual freedom  but not when you try to impose your religion on others

I think there was a suggestion further back in this thread that maybe it's not appropriate for this forum - keep it going I say..very interesting.

Reading the viewpoints so far one thing that stands out for me is that just like in the "real world" (as opposed to on a forum) those "belonging" to a religion always seem to do their best to try to express a non-biased viewpoint, yet can never quite resist the temptation to drive that little nail in (usually with a little bit of rhetoric) that always gives the game away (I know what I mean but they wont..!). Why use a sentence when you can use 1000 words?

I'm a "born into it" catholic (not that that matters a jot, except to me) and have always found myself questioning my faith - just as I encourage my children to do and there are more questions than answers. 

I have to say I take my hat off to you Mr Helpful for stating all your views so well particularly earlier on in the thread when some may have thought you were skating on thin ice (not me though).  These days anyone effectively saying "when in Rome" is often accused of being something or other, hence fewer people are willing to stand up and say it. You are a "non-believer", therefore probably closest to being the most nuetral - in this day and age that's just about perfect.  

Have to say I found Mark H's comparison of the current (muslim?) situation to that of the Irish influx of the 40's & 50's (re: large families) ridiculous in the extreme.(sorry Mark but you're miles off course with that one). You are young enough so that you will still just about be around when religion starts to affect just about everyone in UK whether they want it to or not (almost like gay rights do today)....take no notice of me..that's just my bit of rhetoric..GB

Goweboy

Thanks for the support. I was brought up to believe all was created by a God but at an early age started questioning things. religious people were incapable of explaining anything other than faith in something you cant see or touch and has never been detected with any scientific instrument. As it was written in a book one just had to believe in the good fairy who was in fact supposed to be a woman hating old man who had a list of ten things he didnt want you to do. If you disobeyed him he had a place for you where you would burn and scream until time ran out (also undetectable with scientific instrments) but hey he loves you.

Being serious it comes down to one of two things. Either you believe that the earth and its contents was created by a superhuman being "God" or you believe a God had nothing to do with our creation and life on earth evolved.

If you believe life on earth evolved Darwin style like me then animals such as dinosaurs can be explained (something the religious books dont mention because they ddnt know they existed) and as God doesnt exist one doesnt have to grovel and pray for forgiveness. Life is easy and we get on without hiderence.

If however you believe that Earth etc was created by a God then you have to wonder why he created humans with the ability to enjoy Peace, love and joy and then filled our lives with hate and despair not to mention famine pain war and disease. How could one worship a being that created AIDS, Tsunami, eartquakes, Bird Flu,Cancer War and so on. To my way of thought if there is a god then unfortunately he hates us so it is no use praying and worshiping him..

This logically brings me to the conclusion that all religion is evil and therefore should not be tangled up with a mortgage. Please note I am not having a go at any one religion as I find them all illogical. Perhaps one day someone will be able to give me answers that make sense.

Now I do not mean to be treading on anybodys toes here or offending anybody especially but there are different interpretations that can be had for religions.

If you have studied and reviewed a good interpretation of a religion you might have more answers to the questions you have been asking yourself. Again no offence meant here.

I feel it is everybodys right to do what they need to do ie according to their religion or beliefs and it should not affect you in the slightest ie getting an appropiate mortgage according to your religion.

With regards to some comments about Islam, it is not a religion that is forced and dominating upon people and all about terror, violence etc as is said all over the media nowadays if studied properly from the correct sources. 

Everyone is absolutely entitled to whatever they believe in and be respected for it.  

You mentioned some countries do not allow some things ie outside influences, please bear in mind culture and religion are two different things. Every country has their own cultural baggage which people misinterpret as religion with the help of the media at times.

My aim is not to cause any offence to anybody here but I wanted to make a contribution as I feel some comments are unfair. For example Jihadists are mentioned earlier on, Jihad actually means "a persons struggle" not what the media tells us ie murdering etc. My Jihad could be "I struggle to wake up early in the morning". However unfortunately there are some people or groups that use this word to justify their political acts which again is wrong.

There are various people that are using religion for their political situations and again this is wrong. Religions is about peace not fighting and they all more or less state one thing, there is only "one creator". Islam is only confirming all the previous scriptures/religions therefore has the same prophets and messengers ie Jesus, Abraham and Moses. "Islam" actually means "Peace".

People will always mention some people did some acts etc but again this is indivduals actions not the religions actions.

I hope I have not offended anybody and there will always be different views to which I accept and respect.

I wish everyone all the best for 2007!

Chillinlong

Chillinlong

You should not worry about offending someone with your views. If you do then that is their problem as this country benefits from free speech. Freedom to say what you like is however blocked by religion. I would love to be able to question a priest or a minister or other religious leader as he delivered his sermon but if you contradict them it soon becomes blasphemy. Politics gets tangled up with religion in many ways and causes many bad personal restrictions. The politicians of many Islamic countries are also religious and spiritual leaders. Our own Tony Blair is a Catholic. Our Queen is the head of the Church of England. George Bush (Alledgedly Christian) said that God told him to invade Iraq. Are we going to say he was deluded and dreamt that God had spoken to him? Personaly I would, but many of the American people believe him. I like Richard Dawkins on this where he says that when one person suffers from delusion we call it insanity but when a mass suffers from delusion we call it religion.

Islam may mean peace but it does not show it well and like other religions the moderates do no where near enough to stop the extremists. Jihad may mean personal struggle but I dont think Salman Rushdie saw it that way

There are many bad things going on in the word in the name of religion. These include the obvious like war and terrorism but also include Female circumcision.and kidnapping of little boys because their parents were the wrong faith. Brain washing. This is common in all religions but the christians are credited with inventing it.

Anything that tries to get to children before they are old enough to understand things has to be dodgy yet your religion is largely geographical (not so much now due to easy travel) but as a general rule you tend to have the same faith as your parents. Dont you find that a little strange? I know quite a few Catholics who were brought up in Catholic school and when asked if they thought they would be muslim if brought up in a muslim school all answered yes. This shows how faith biases the information.

You made a comment about people having a better knowledge of religion one might have more answers. I think the opposite is true. If one had a better knowledge of science you would realise how often the scriptures were wrong.and how many answers are there but have been supressed by religion.

As you rightly say Islam shares a lot with Christianity and Judaism. It shares the old testament which if you read it thoroughly you will realise that Yahweh (god) was a very nasty piece of works indeed.

Like you I am not trying to offend people I am just trying to put up my views which are alternative to yours but my aim is to make people think rationaly and enter into sensible adult debate which so far has occured on this thread.

I'm eagerly awaiting the first Buddhist mortgage.

On completion, the lender immediately forecloses the mortgage and reposesses the property without appeal - thus removing worldly distractions and hastening the journey to enlightenment.

I believe if one had been particularly naughty in life, a few more favourable reincarnations would be required to redress the balance to a point where you're once more sentient enough to earn money for payments...

Even Buddhist lenders are reluctant to accept payment in cockroaches and leaf mulch.

I would be concerned about offending our Buddhist friends, but considering the worst you're likely to get for such an affront is an expression of resigned disappointment, I don't think we need worry about the risk of reprisal!