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The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

Last post 02 Aug 2008, 9:09 AM by rc169. 79 replies.
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  •  01 Jul 2008, 2:36 PM 526316 in reply to 526281

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    Carl,

     

    I don’t think you are leading anyone up the garden path (or precisely, to financial ruin) intentionally, but your advice is doing people a great disservice.

     

    Your point about “nobody knowing what is going happen” is one of the worst and most dangerous of this entire BTL bubble: By saying that you are excusing yourself and others of doing their homework. Risk is not a constant thing. There are unlikely scenarios and there are likely scenarios. This lady has not done her homework (and neither have you) on the macro economic outlook for house prices in this country. If she (or you) had, she would have realised that by far the most likely scenario is a huge and protracted bear market in UK real estate. I mean, just to get to fair value from here, the average house price needs to fall by 43% relative to earnings from the 2007 high, but it is more likely to overshoot - meaning a fall of about 60% relative to earnings. Now, what that means in nominal terms depends on how long it takes to fall and how much earnings rise in the meantime. But the most optimistic measure of this would still give you 35% peak to trough. Even the government believes that the best scenario for this year alone is a fall of 5-10% in nominal prices. On top of that every single driver of property prices over the last few years (know what they are?) have not only stopped, but are going the opposite direction in a dramatic way.

     

    Investment has always been, is and always will be, the evaluation of risk against potential reward. To ignore the risk side of the equation is not an option for long term investment success – in any asset class. But by simply writing off far-and-away the most likely outcome for real estate by saying that no one knows the future, this is exactly what you are doing, and worse, it is what you are encouraging this lady to do.

     

    You talk about people protecting their assets. I don’t think you truly understand leverage: This lady doesn’t really have any assets: she is leveraged 10 times! And this is at very best – the notional market value is very different form the real price she could achieve by selling (but even that is a lot higher than it will be in say 6 months time).

     

    You talk about your experience. But you have not experienced bear markets outside of periods of high inflation. Your experience can only tell you that property prices go up in the long term – but that is wrong, because they only do so as a result of inflation (as does the price of everything). We are now in a completely different situation, with relatively low inflation and house price which are some 3 ½ times further from fair value than they were in 1989.

     

    You talk about lifestyle choices – do you think bankruptcy is what this lady would choose?

     

    One of the things that neither of us has mentioned is margin calls. You may or may not be aware of this, but most BTL mortgage contracts stipulate that initial LTV’s need to be maintained. This means that if your initial LTV was 90% and the value of the property falls 10%, you have to pay down the mortgage by 9% of the original value if the bank asks you to. If you don’t, the bank can invoke immediate default and repossess the property. If this happens to this lady, she will be bankrupt.

     

    Look, the point I am trying to make to her is that she needs to face up to her situation and thereby take control. Your solution is essentially to sit back and let events take their course. That path almost certainly ends in financial disaster. You congratulated leveraging herself up like that by telling her it was good to take action. My view (which isn’t 100% certain, but is as close to as you get in investing) is that what she did was a monumental mistake, and one on which she needs to act now. I have given her the best advice I can.

     

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  •  16 Jul 2008, 9:03 PM 537660 in reply to 526316

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    Fascinating post that has prompted me to register for the site.

    Patsy hasnt really given us enough information to fully evaluate the situation.

    Is it the case that for a quick sale, combined with transaction fees that any sale would result in no release of equity?

    What sort of shortfall are we looking at on the rental side of the business with 7% rates? What if they go up to 9%?

    I think after all of the hassle of establishing the properties and the upfront costs then as long as the rental coverage could weather further modest rate increases on the SVR then I'd be tempted to tough it out.

    But if the portfolio would cause me to go bust with increased rates and there was a clear exit strategy then I would take it.

    Have you taken any action further to the advice given to date? Can you provide more details?

     Good luck...

  •  23 Jul 2008, 9:23 AM 542304 in reply to 537660

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    Patsy

    I don't know where you are or the true situation, but my gut feeling is -

    (1)  It is too late to sell.  You will struggle to pay off the mortgage on any of them.

    (2)  List all properties on a spreadsheet.  Columns - rent pa, value, realisable value (after CGT, EAs fees etc), gross yield, net yield.

    (3)  Add further columns to show what would happen if rents rose 10%, what happens when you are on the SVR, whether you can increase the rents (eg extend), and how much that would cost.

    (4)  Work out if any of them work (are cash flow positive), or could work if extended, if you are paying 7.5% SVR.

    (5)  Order the list in various orders - Most equity released if sold to biggest loss if sold, best gross yield to lowest gross yield, biggest net yield to lowest net yield, best if extended to worst if extended.

    (6)  Come up with a plan.

    My guess is that the ones you most want to sell will be the hardest ones to sell.  Start by sticking a couple of the best ones and a few of the worst on the market and see what happens.  If you can't make money short term (even with a hopeful 10% rent rise prediction) then get shot ASAP.  If the banks will let you (ie if you can pay them back).

    It is very hard without more specifics but your properties are probably worth 10-20% off peak price, which means that - IMHO - you are probably in negative equity on most of them already, unless you are more realistic a valuer than most owners are (myself included!)

    Sorry I can't be more helpful, I have tried.  Changing your name and moving to the one with no mortgage and hoping you are never found is probably as decent a piece of advice as I can give you unfortunately.
     

  •  23 Jul 2008, 9:33 AM 542313 in reply to 542304

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    Great Post Father Fred!

    Poor old Patsy - she's become our Guinea "Pig" on this thread - but has exposed some good advice.

    Carl


    Visit: The Discount Property Directory.co.uk
    100's of discount properties sent by email daily
  •  23 Jul 2008, 9:41 AM 542316 in reply to 537660

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    ""Changing your name and moving to the one with no mortgage and hoping you are never found is probably as decent a piece of advice as I can give you unfortunately.""

     

    i think that is terrible advice  - she will be living the rest of her life wondering if she will be "found"  and folks do get found every day of the week  ......  national insurance numbers, NHS numbers - all these dont change and Lenders have very experienced debt collecting agencies

     

    surely going bankrupt and having a proper end to the situation could be one way forward ?  at least then you will have closure and will be able to get on with your life without constantly looking over your shoulder.
     


    Clottie The Positive
    “Windswept and interesting”

    The Somerset-Lancashire lady

    Aviatrix extraordinaire !


  •  23 Jul 2008, 11:29 AM 542382 in reply to 542316

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    Sorry, the do a runner comment was slightly tongue in cheek, but with the serious thought that if she could wipe the slate clean with just one paid off house she would be in a great position moving forward.
  •  23 Jul 2008, 2:31 PM 542625 in reply to 521998

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    I think Pods approach is absolutely the way to do it. Somebody once said to me that you can't manage what you cant measure. In the halcyon days of old where you would have meteoric rises in value and 20 and 30 per cent yields there was no real need you could guesstimate your way to a fortune, even in these times though I would still want to easily and forensically explore my exposure to risks. I now have all the management information needed to assess my exact level of exposure and at what point I need to be scanning the recruitment ads. This may not sit well with many novice investors who may not want to know the bad news ( I have friends who operate in this netherworld) but knowing the nuts and bolts of everything that is and everything that could be means you are at very least prepared.

    Here is the type of information I have in spreadsheet form ; cash; due,recieved shortfalls,accumulated shortfalls,comments,possible rent uplift,yield at current value high, yield at current value low - all per property. per tenant. This is a daily control for rent as well -  so I am nailed to my position every day. I also run property versus exposure models to see what interest rates, increased voids, decreased voids, rent uplifts,or any other variables can do do my business. I am tracking my cash position ten daily to see whether excluding no costs I am income positive neutral or negative. As it stands I can predict what a 1/2/3/4/5 percent increase coupled with a void increase would do to my cash flow and couple it with property sales, credit card repayments etc.

     I am sure that people reading this may feel all this a bit unnecessary, and you may be right, but I can't help but feel that the property business just got very real and very serious to many people who never bothered with such inannities, and I sense that this is only the beginning of far more serious things to come.

    An old army saying springs to mind "in order to get to where you want, first know where you are...


    Houses wanted in Hull to £80k. All considered- burn outs /refurbs or refurbished. Fast completions no surveys. Commissions paid!
    Now taking on cost cutting refurbs/management Croydon and Hull.
  •  23 Jul 2008, 2:44 PM 542629 in reply to 542625

    Re: The Landlords Survival Guide - Having Problems? Ideas to Solve them

    What a pro' you are Red Shoes!!

    Thank you for sharing that amount of detail - anyone aspiring to your level of knowledge will be spending a few hours with Excel tonight, and, hopefully wake up with a clearer idea of their personal options & strategies.

    Brilliant,

    Carl


    Visit: The Discount Property Directory.co.uk
    100's of discount properties sent by email daily
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