Singing Pig

my lovely cousin who works part time for a local authority in the north was recently comparing pay slips with 2 colleagues, and it now transpires that the authority say that she has been over-paid for 2 years and wish to claw back the money. (£1000k). She is in serious financial dooo as it is - and has 5 jobs to keep her and her family going.

 

she works as a cleaner/care worker (different pay rates for both jobs)  and works different hours some weeks.

 

  Two  years ago  the local authority changed its payroll software and started to  "average out" hours worked over a 3 year period  -  this means that she is not necessarily paid for the number of hours actually worked each month.

 

Pay slips do not show the number of hours worked,  nor the pay rate of each hour.  

 

She is not in a union.

 

Any suggestions as to how to offer her some guidance please ?  

 

many thanks

 

clottie  

clottie:

my lovely cousin who works part time for a local authority in the north was recently comparing pay slips with 2 colleagues, and it now transpires that the authority say that she has been over-paid for 2 years and wish to claw back the money. (£1000k). She is in serious financial dooo as it is - and has 5 jobs to keep her and her family going.

 

she works as a cleaner/care worker (different pay rates for both jobs)  and works different hours some weeks.

 

  Two  years ago  the local authority changed its payroll software and started to  "average out" hours worked over a 3 year period  -  this means that she is not necessarily paid for the number of hours actually worked each month.

 

Pay slips do not show the number of hours worked,  nor the pay rate of each hour.  

 

She is not in a union.

 

Any suggestions as to how to offer her some guidance please ?  

 

I recall a similar case when I was a union rep, also a local authority, but it was about twenty years ago!

I would suggest joining the appropriate union to get up to date (and independent) advice, though that will, obviously, eat a little more into money that is already tight.

From what I recall, the situation is not particularly hopeful for your cousin, as the employer has recognised that they have made an error, and have advised the employee. However, there might be mitigating circumstances, which a union rep may be able to use to argue for a solution more favourable to your cousin. Such 'mitigating circumstances' could include the lack of detail about hours worked and pay rates on the payslips, and the apparent lack of clarity in the payroll system where it 'averages out' the hours worked. Your cousin should obviously demand full documentary evidence to demonstrate how she has been overpaid, but I would seriously suggest that the union would be able to help in understanding the figures, etc. Does your cousin have her own records of the hours she worked, and at which job/rate of pay?

Hope this is of some help - as I say, the case in my experience was a long time ago, but there were some mitigating circumstances (different to your cousin's case) which led to a slightly more satisfactory outcome for the person affected. 

Hi Clottie

The local Citizens Advice may also be able to help - certainly worth asking.

Trevor 

thanks guys  -  she is compiling all her pay slips for the past two years as we speak (organised minds must run in the family !)  - and as you suggest has asked her employer to provide proof of the overpayment

 

surely a wages system that "estimates" hours worked cannot be legal ?  if the hours are "averaged" over 3 years and someone leaves before then, how can an employee have any way at all of knowing if they have been paid enough or over  paid or even been paid just right ?? 

 

CAB may also know of other local cases - thanks

 

she had a row with the union rep a few years back and so does not feel she will get support if she joins now.  

clottie:

 

she had a row with the union rep a few years back and so does not feel she will get support if she joins now.  

That's obviously unfortunate, but it shouldn't be an unsurmountable problem - if the union is properly organised, in a situation like that they should be able to find somebody other than the local rep to represent your cousin - somebody not involved in the earlier disagreement your cousin had.   

clottie:

  

CAB may also know of other local cases - thanks

 

I see, from their website, that the CAB do offer employment advice - but I would imagine that, where there is union representation, then the union will have the best resources - and they will also have knowledge of the details of the particular employer and their employment practices. At the end of the day, the CAB are generalists, while the union are (or should be) the specialists in employment matters.

clottie:

thanks guys  -  she is compiling all her pay slips for the past two years as we speak (organised minds must run in the family !)  - and as you suggest has asked her employer to provide proof of the overpayment

 

surely a wages system that "estimates" hours worked cannot be legal ?  if the hours are "averaged" over 3 years and someone leaves before then, how can an employee have any way at all of knowing if they have been paid enough or over  paid or even been paid just right ?? 

  

Hopefully she also has a record of the hours she actually worked - as that does not appear on the payslips!

I rather doubt that the system that 'estimates' hours worked is illegal - after all, some people are paid a fixed salary and expected to work the hours necessary to get the job done! However, I cannot really see what benefit this system has for the employer, as there must eventually be a 'day of reckoning', when the correct figure needs to be calculated - as you suggest, when the employee leaves, if not before then! Obviously, the computer can no doubt calculate this quite quickly - but why not just pay the correct amount each week or month??? Very strange! 

many thanks for the ideas - i will see if i can get her to go back to the union  -  they certainly helped me against employers years gone by

Hi Clottie

The answer to your question is here

http://www.paypershop.com/faq/overpaid.html

And it lookes like she's go to pay back the wages - sorry

Robert
 

hi robert -   many  many thanks for this link  - it does indeed look that way, but, i have posted a question  on the forum  which you kindly  gave me the link for.

 

my cousin has initiated a grievance procedure  - so at least she is not having to have money clawed back at the moment.   Management are now compiling a statement as to how much they want to claw back and why.

 

it is just wonderfully stunning how much fantastic info there is on the web  !!!! 

 

if she wants to take them to court, i'll certainly go with her !!